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Conversations With Prostate Cancer Experts


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Prostate Cancer Clinical Trials

Dr. Charles Myers frames our May conversations about prostate cancer clinical trials:

Over the past ten years, the management of prostate cancer has been revolutionized by the appearance of new drugs and new concepts using established drugs as well as surgery and radiation. Every one of these advances only exists because of clinical trials. This is the only path forward. This month, we discuss many of the issues patients face when they consider entering a clinical trial.

The fact that most large clinical trials include a randomization to a control arm is often a major source of patient concern, especially if the control arm uses a placebo. When the control arm involves an active treatment, that treatment will typically represent current state-of-art care that you might receive if you do not enter a clinical trial. However, the cost to you will be less because the clinical trial sponsor will commonly cover the cost of care. The financial benefit to you could easily reach thousands of dollars.

What if the trial includes a placebo arm? First, the existence of a placebo arm commonly indicates that no existing treatment has proven to be of benefit. As a patient, you should do your due diligence on this point. Second, there are strict rules in place to protect patients on the placebo arm. You should know these rules and make sure you are comfortable with them.

Patients on a trial’s placebo arm commonly do better than similar untreated patients not on a clinical trial. There is actually a large literature on why the Placebo Effect exists.

One explanation offered is that patients on the placebo typically get better standard care, and I think this is a major factor. It may also be that patients on placebo do better for psychological reasons or a mind-body effect. The latter might be particularly relevant for the treatment of nausea, pain, anxiety, or depression.

Finally, many patients enter clinical trials for altruistic reasons. By entering a well-designed clinical trial, you will help answer questions that will benefit future patients. The progress we have made over the past decade only happened because patients who came before you chose to enter clinical trials.

Not a member? Join us to read our May issue on clinical trials.

 


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Patients Speak: I Had Genomic Testing

Steve S. talks to Prostatepedia about how genomic testing gave him confidence that active surveillance was a safe choice for him.

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How did you find out that you had prostate cancer?

Steve: I don’t remember exactly, but I think I went to the urologist on the recommendation of a doctor who said I should have some PSA tests. I went to the urologist. The urologist ran some PSA tests and said, “They’re a little elevated. Maybe we need to run a biopsy,” which they did. That was about ten years ago. The biopsy came back with three or four cores indicating cancer with a Gleason score of 6 (3+3), which has remained the same over the last ten years. I think that’s what happened.

What kinds of genomic tests did you have and when?

Steve: That happened about five years later. I went to a support group and I heard about genomic testing. My doctor at the time hadn’t mentioned anything about genomic testing to me. I said to him that I didn’t see any downside in having genomic testing. Why couldn’t I have it? He said that he didn’t think it would be covered by my insurance and it’s not something they had done. I felt like a little bit of a pioneer.

I actually got on the phone with the people at Genomic Health in California and asked how much the test would cost. They mentioned a figure of about $500. I asked, “So that’s what I’m going to be charged?” They said, “Probably.” They weren’t really clear about it. In the end I was never charged.

They sent three results to my physician after a few weeks. Because my physician had never given them instructions as to what risk category he felt that I was in, they sent back three results based on different risk profiles. To this moment, I still don’t know exactly which risk profile I fit into.

All three results looked somewhat encouraging to my layperson’s eyes. I discussed the results with the doctor at the time and he said, “I think this confirms what we’re doing at the moment is right. You can continue on active surveillance, but of course it’s your choice.” They will always say that….

The results definitely changed your treatment path?

Steve: I was already on active surveillance, although in the first two or three years, I was thinking about some form of radiation therapy.

We talked about seeds. We talked about beams. I even talked to a friend a few years older than me who had gone through proton beam therapy and he was very encouraged by his results. My insurance at the time did not cover that, so proton beam therapy came off the table. I was not thinking about surgery. I was turned off by the idea of surgery, even though they had a DaVinci robot.

Then I got the OncoTypeDX test. I looked at the results with my physician and decided to proceed. It confirmed what I was already inclined towards.

Do you feel like it gave you more confidence in your decision?

Steve: Yes. I think so. I think that’s fair to say.

Would you recommend that other men take these tests?

Steve: Everybody has a very different psychological makeup. For example, I’ve got a brother-in-law who doesn’t have prostate cancer, but is very educated on medical matters. He’s a smart guy, and so I talked to him about it. He said, “God, if it was me, I would take care of it right away. I’d have that prostate out of there and have peace of mind.” I responded with: “I’ve lost very little sleep over the years about it.” That’s just my makeup. It doesn’t bother me. I’ve got other things to think about, other things I care about. Health is very, very important.

I’m not a complete passenger in this process. That’s why it’s called active surveillance. I’m very careful about going to my doctor’s appointments, following up, trying to keep myself educated, and so forth. Would I recommend it to somebody else? Somebody else who has the same psychological makeup that I do? Absolutely. Somebody who is a nervous person, a Type A person, somebody who is likely to lose sleep? Perhaps not. I don’t see any possible downside to the testing, though. It’s another tool for you and your doctor to use to help you make your decisions.

Not a member? Join us to read the rest of this month’s conversations about genomics.


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Can Decipher Change Your Prostate Cancer Treatment Plan?

Dr. John Gore is a clinician, surgeon, researcher, and educator specializing in urologic oncology and general urology at the University of Washington.

Prostatepedia spoke with him about how Decipher changes the way doctors treat men with prostate cancer.

What is Decipher?

Dr. Gore: Decipher is from a family of genomic tests. In general, it tries to look at some of the alterations in people’s genes associated with cancer or its progression. Decipher attempts to create a panel of genes associated with the likelihood of a cancer coming back. It takes that panel of genes and integrates it with clinical information to calculate the risk of developing spread of cancer to sites that could be detected clinically, like the bones or the lymph nodes, within five years after prostate cancer surgery.

When is a man likely to encounter this test? After that initial biopsy when he is first diagnosed? After his prostatectomy?

Dr. Gore: The most common scenario would be after surgery. If a man has his prostate removed and the pathology shows that he has a cancer that by all accounts seems to have been successfully treated with the surgery, Decipher may not be the right test for him.

If he has some high-risk features— his cancer is potentially encroaching on the shell of his prostate, he has a positive surgical margin, or there is involvement of the seminal vesicles that sit behind the prostate—then he might benefit from Decipher.

That way we can ask if—in addition to knowing that he had some high-risk pathology features—he appears genomically to have a high-risk cancer?

What do the results look like? Do they change how a man is going to be treated post-surgery? How?

Dr. Gore: The actual report that a patient or doctor gets tells them the probability, or percent risk, that he will have clinical metastases within five years of having his prostate removed for prostate cancer. In general, those numbers tend to be in the single digits to low teens. It’s not a common event.

For most people, prostate cancer surgery successfully treats their cancer. That is why this is best used on higher-risk individuals.

In our study, we looked at a cadre of patients who were either found to have high-risk features at the time of their prostate cancer surgery, or now their PSA is subtly rising after going to zero after surgery. Those patients should potentially have more aggressive treatment.

We showed that if a patient had the Decipher test, physicians’ recommendations changed. If your Decipher results showed a lower risk score, your doctor was more likely to recommend observation.

Patients with a higher risk Decipher score were more aggressively treated. They were recommended to go ahead and get additional radiation to the area where their prostate was removed, rather than just active surveillance.

The bottom line is that Decipher changes how men are treated?

Dr. Gore: Yes. We have some follow-up data we just presented at the American Society of Clinical Oncology, Genitourinary meeting in February that showed that those treatment recommendations were actually followed 80% of the time.

You said only men who are high-risk should really be tested. Not everyone getting prostate cancer surgery needs a Decipher Test?

Dr. Gore: That’s right.

Is Decipher widely accepted in the medical community? If a man in rural Minnesota goes to his local urologist or local community oncologist, will he likely be offered the Decipher Test? If not, should he ask his doctor to order it?

Dr. Gore: I think it’s definitely worth requesting it. One thing that has come up is insurance payer coverage, not just for the Decipher Test, but also for other tests like it. The bar that some of these companies have to cross to get their test approved is fairly high.

Some insurance companies are asking if the test not only changes treatment for patients. The trial they’re looking for will compare patients who got the Decipher Test with patients who didn’t to see if the decisions that were made impacted cancer outcomes. If, for example, your Decipher results say you’re high-risk, and you get radiation based on that information, was that the correct decision? The challenge is that prostate cancer is immensely slow-growing. Even when it’s high-risk, even when it’s aggressive, we’re talking about clinical outcomes that take years and years to manifest. It imposes an irrationally onerous burden to prove that these tests are the right thing.

You could wait 10 years to find out if the treatment decisions were correct. Meanwhile, time is passing and these men need to make choices…

Dr. Gore: Absolutely.

Join us to read the rest of Dr. Gore’s thoughts on the Decipher test for prostate cancer.


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Dr. John Gore: Why Medicine?

Dr. John Gore is a clinician, surgeon, researcher, and educator specializing in urologic oncology and general urology at the University of Washington.

Prostatepedia spoke with him about how Decipher changes the way doctors treat men with prostate cancer.

Why did you become a doctor?

Dr. John Gore: My initial vision for my life was that I was going to be a lawyer. Then I found that I really enjoyed my experiences while interning at the hospital. That brought about an application to medical school. I think being a doctor offers a chance to have a daily meaningful impact, which is a unique part of the job.

How did you end up working in urology?

Dr. Gore: Urology is a specialty that very few people enter medical school thinking that they want to do. In part, most people are like I was and don’t even know about the specialty. I don’t have any doctors in my family. The only doctor I knew was my own pediatrician. I just assumed I was going to be a pediatrician.

But I really enjoyed surgery. I enjoyed being in the operating room. I just really enjoy the generic construct that someone has a problem and I have the tools to fix it.

Urology is an interesting hybrid. Most surgeries have a homolog in internal medicine. For example, there’s cardiothoracic surgery and cardiology. There’s colorectal surgery and gastroenterology. We don’t really have that in urology. We do a lot of chronic disease management. We do a lot of long-term follow-up of our own patients. It is, in many ways, a hybrid of internal medicine and surgery, which is really cool.

Not a member? Join us. In April, we’re talking about prostate cancer genomics.


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Differences Between Prostate Cancer Genomic Tests

Eric A. Klein, MD, is an international leader in the biology and management of prostate cancer. Dr. Klein serves as Chairman of the Glickman Urological & Kidney Institute at the Cleveland Clinic.

Prostatepedia spoke with him about the differences between the various genomic tests available to prostate cancer patients.

Dr. Eric Klein: These tests measure the expression of genes in prostate cancer. That’s what they’re designed to do. They predict the likelihood of your having higher-grade cancer or cancer that penetrates the rind around the prostate (called extraprostatic extension), or cancer in the lymph nodes or seminal vesicles. These tests predict that better than biopsy or plain old Gleason grading. This gives us a leg up in deciding who is a good candidate for surveillance.

If your biopsy only shows Gleason 6, but you actually have higher-grade cancer in the prostate, or you have some cancer that’s through the rind or in the seminal vesicles, you’re not a good candidate for surveillance. We know that from decades of doing radical prostatectomies. These patients are at highest risk for progression and that’s what these tests measure.

They also tell us whether a pure Gleason 6 cancer is one of the 5-10% that has molecular features of high-grade cancer.

These are biopsy-based tests. For example, if a patient has a biopsy that shows Gleason 6 cancer and otherwise favorable features, such as a PSA below 10, and a PSA density below 0.15, we wonder whether he’s a candidate for surveillance. We always do a confirmatory test after a first biopsy. Decipher can also be used after the prostate has been removed to help decide on the need for additional treatment.

A genomic test like this is appropriate in some patients. An MRI of the prostate is appropriate in others. Sometimes it’s appropriate to get both. We don’t have enough experience to know which is the best test for which scenario, although I have some ideas about that. Then, once we confirm that the patient has a low-grade cancer that lacks molecular features of high-grade cancer, we feel confident in putting him on surveillance.

The results can do two things. They can confirm that the patient is a candidate for surveillance. Sometimes they can convince a reluctant patient that surveillance is the right thing. We don’t want to over-treat people who have low-grade cancers that aren’t going to kill them because the side effects of treatment are worse than the likelihood of his dying of cancer. Sometimes, the results can convince a physician that surveillance is the right thing. If you look at the criteria for putting people on surveillance, it’s mostly patients who have just a minimal amount of cancer–low-grade cancer, a Gleason 6 on a biopsy.

We published a study in the Journal of Urology recently that showed that even among patients with high-volume

Gleason 6 cancer in multiple cores— four or five remove cores—many have no molecular features of high-grade cancer. In the past, they haven’t traditionally been considered good candidates for surveillance, but based on the biology of their tumor, they are good candidates for surveillance.

You may have someone who has a couple of cores of low-grade cancer, maybe a PI-RADS 4 lesion on MRI.

You’re not sure if they’re a good candidate for surveillance or not. If a genomic test confirms the absence of molecular features of high-grade cancer, you can put the patient on surveillance. That is the kind of information that genomic tests provide. They have their nuances.

Oncotype and Decipher are good for patients with very low, low, and favorable intermediate-risk disease. Prolaris is best validated for patients who have intermediate risk disease. It doesn’t have good discriminatory value for low-grade cancers. Generally, they all measure gene expression and they’re all are used in the same way.

These tests help determine whether or not someone is a candidate for surveillance. At the moment, we don’t use these tests based on biopsy to determine which treatment to give a patient, but that’s coming. Post-prostatectomy, Decipher can help tell us that.

There are challenges to active surveillance. Say we put someone on surveillance and he starts out with 1 core of Gleason 6 cancer. A year later, he is re-biopsed and has 3 cores of Gleason 6 cancer. We don’t know whether that’s true biologic progression that requires treatment, if all that Gleason 6 cancer was there in the beginning and was just not sampled by biopsy, or if the patient grew some new Gleason 6 cancer that doesn’t have any biologic potential.

This isn’t established yet, but I believe we can use these tests for what I call serial biologic monitoring, meaning you biopsy patients a year or three apart. These tests, for the very first time, allow us to measure true changes in biology as opposed to just changes in what we see on biopsy, which may underestimate what’s going on in the prostate. This is a new paradigm.

Another common scenario is a man who has a low-grade cancer on initial biopsy (1 core, Gleason 6) and a year later has a little bit of Gleason 3+4 with 5% pattern 4 and 95% pattern 3. In the past, that would always trigger treatment. But it’s my belief, based on what we’ve learned from these tests, that this is probably not correct. Many of those men can still stay on surveillance.

Join us to read the rest of Dr. Klein’s thoughts on genomic tests for prostate cancer.

 


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Dr. Eric Klein: Why Medicine?

Eric A. Klein, MD, is an international leader in the biology and management of prostate cancer. Dr. Klein serves as Chairman of the Glickman Urological & Kidney Institute at the Cleveland Clinic.

Prostatepedia spoke with him about why he became a doctor.

Why did you become a doctor?

Dr. Klein: I don’t really know. I never remember wanting to do anything else.

Even when you were a little kid?

Dr. Klein: When I was in first grade, I missed a month of school because I had what they thought was rheumatic fever. My pediatrician came to see me a couple times a week. That doesn’t happen so much now.

No. It doesn’t.

Dr. Klein: I suspect that’s had some influence because my parents really respected him. But I can’t articulate it for you. I never wanted to do anything else. It was not an intellectual decision. It’s just what I wanted to do. I was born wanting to be a doctor.

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Dr. Felix Feng: Why I Became A Doctor

Dr. Felix Feng is a physician-scientist at University of California, San Francisco (UCSF) keenly interested in improving outcomes for patients with prostate cancer. His research centers on discovering prognostic/predictive biomarkers in prostate cancer and developing rational approaches to targeted treatment for therapy-resistant prostate cancer. He also sees patients through his prostate cancer clinic at UCSF.

Prostatepedia spoke with him about why he became a doctor who cares for men with prostate cancer.

Why did you become a doctor?

Dr. Felix Feng: I became a doctor because my family has a strong history of cancer. Unfortunately, I learned the repercussions of cancer at an early age. All four of my grandparents passed away from some form of cancer. My father has successfully overcome three different cancers. Just last year, my sister, unfortunately, passed away in her 40s from cancer.

Before ever becoming a doctor, I was part of many patients’ families. I saw it strongly from the patient side and decided that if I was going to commit my life to studying something, it was going to be cancer.

So then your journey is really personal.

Dr. Feng: Very personal.

Join us to read Dr. Feng’s thoughts on genomics + prostate cancer.