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Conversations With Prostate Cancer Experts


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ZERO’s Jamie Bearse On Cancer Recurrence

Mr. Jamie Bearse is the CEO of ZERO — The End of Prostate Cancer (www.zerocancer.org). ZERO is a United States-based nonprofit with a mission to end prostate cancer.

He talks to Prostatepedia about dealing with recurrence.

Finishing your prostate cancer treatment is cause for celebration and relief. Life is best lived in the moment as we all only have today. However, stress about side effects and thoughts of recurrence creep in. It’s critical not to live in an anxious world of what if, but it’s important to know that up to 40 percent of men will experience a recurrence after completing treatment. For those who do experience recurrence— whether it is biochemical or metastatic disease—we’d like to share some tips for coping with the journey ahead. Talk to your doctor about every aspect of your new diagnosis, including your treatment options.

It’s important to understand whether you are experiencing biochemical recurrence or if your cancer has become metastatic and what your treatment options are. At your appointment, take detailed notes, or bring someone with you to do so. Afterward, do your own research about what you discussed with your doctor, and if you still feel unsure, seek a second opinion. Much like when you were first diagnosed, it’s important to understand all options available to you based on your specific disease and circumstances.

Consider joining a support group.

Support groups offer the chance to share feelings and fears with others who understand, as well as to exchange practical information and helpful suggestions. Connecting with other men whose cancer journey is similar to yours can allow you to explore options and seek advice from someone who has been there before.

Try to lean on your loved ones.

Your loved ones want to help you through this newest obstacle – try not to be afraid to open up and talk about how you’re feeling. If you don’t feel comfortable talking to someone, write down your thoughts in a journal. Talking and thinking about your concerns as you work through your options can help you feel less afraid or anxious and more in control.

Utilize all resources available to you.

If you don’t feel comfortable talking to a loved one or a support group, or if you feel you need additional support, consider calling ZERO360 at 1-844-244-1309 Toll-Free, a free one on- one patient support service that can help you find qualified counselors and emotional support resources. The fear of recurrence is normal and reasonable for all cancer survivors. Although you cannot control whether your cancer recurs, you can control how you move into this next phase of your prostate cancer journey. ZERO also offers a new, peer-to-peer MENtor program, which can match you with a patient or survivor who has experienced a similar diagnosis or treatment pathway for one-on one support. In addition, if you’re experiencing recurrence and are looking for additional resources to help, visit http://www.zerocancer.org/ get-support/zero360.

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3 or Fewer Prostate Cancer Mets

Dr. Piet Ost is a radiation oncologist at Ghent University in Belgium. His work focuses on post-surgery radiation therapy and metastasis-directed therapy for oligometastatic prostate cancer, or a cancer recurrence with three or fewer metastases.

Prostatepedia spoke with him about treating men with so few metastases after treatment.

Can you define oligometastatic prostate cancer?

Dr. Ost: First of all, if your doctor talks about oligometastatic disease, I think it’s very important to ask them what they mean by that? When we look through literature, there are several definitions used.

Some people use oligometastatic while others use oligorecurrence, synchronous metastases, or low volume metastases. Many of these probably mean the same, but there is no uniform definition.

In 1995, Hellman and Weichselbaum first defined oligometastases as metastases limited in number and location. These tumors have not developed the full capacity for metastatic growth. It could be an issue with the metastases—or the seed—or it could be an issue with the soil—the environment in which the metastases started to grow. That’s the biological definition.

This is not very useful as a clinician. What is limited? Is that a certain number? If you look through literature, many clinicians define it as up to three metastatic lesions with no more than two different organs involved. That is probably the most used definition, but there are alternatives. Some say that it’s only one metastasis while others say it’s as many as five or even 10 in case of brain metastases. Some say there has to be a certain amount of time between primary diagnosis and the occurrence of metastasis.

There’s a lot of confusion throughout the literature. If you read an article, you have to look at their definition. When doctors talk to each other, and when patients talk to each other, they all use the word oligometastatic, but it might be that they’re talking about a different disease.

Is there any sort of restriction on where those metastases are located—for example, in only the pelvic area?

Dr. Ost: At this time, I don’t think so. It’s a biological phenotype. We care less where the metastasis occurs. For example, we have had patients with unique lung mets at the time of recurrence where we remove those lung mets, and then these patients remain disease-free for many months or even years.

Normally, when you have a patient with lung mets, those are visceral mets, and their prognosis is supposed to be very poor no matter what. There appears to be a subset of patients with a limited number of metastases, even visceral metastases, who still benefit from removing or irradiating the metastases. We have several of those cases documented already. It’s not about the location. It’s something about the biology, and that is the big problem at this time.

Currently, when we propose a certain oligometastatic or metastasis directed therapy to a patient, we don’t know if the metastases we see and treat are the only ones there, or if three months after we remove or eradiate them, there will be 20 new metastases. We don’t know that at the start. This shows us that imaging is still far from perfect and sometimes we only see the tip of the iceberg.

When we look at the distribution or pattern of metastases in recurrent prostate cancer with Choline PET/CT and PSMA PET/CT imaging, we see that, after receiving prior prostate cancer treatment, the majority of patients relapse first in the lymph nodes.

That is mainly in the pelvic lymph nodes. If we look at all the patients that we screen for now, 70% have nodal recurrences, 25% have bone metastases, and 5% have visceral mets. If we look at all of those recurrences, two thirds of those relapses are what we call oligometastatic, meaning up to three metastatic spots. We don’t believe that there is a true limitation on the organs. How it evolves is actually a fingerprint of the disease.

When you start, you don’t know whether it’s a true oligomet. We cannot predict at this time how the disease will evolve.

How do you normally treat oligomets? With radiation or surgery? How do you decide which is most appropriate?

Dr. Ost: We still counsel our patients on the standard options. For patients with upfront metastatic disease, the landscape has changed dramatically where we now introduce Androgen Deprivation Therapy (ADT) plus Taxotere (docetaxel) or ADT plus Zytiga (abiraterone) as a standard of care.

We still do not know if these options are helpful in treating the primary tumor and its mets with metastatic-directed therapy. In situations with upfront oligometastatic disease, we counsel our patients that the standard of care is systemic drugs while the addition of any metastatic-directed therapy is one big question mark. We do not advise it outside clinical trial.

The situation is a bit different in the recurrent setting. In the recurrent setting, there’s a gray zone. For example, the older data said that starting ADT for a PSA relapse following primary therapies—just starting ADT—is not advised; it’s better to wait and see and do a delayed ADT at the time of symptomatic progression.

Now with the very sensitive imaging, we see mets earlier at PSA relapse. What should we do with these? Do we still say the standard of care is wait and see, ADT, or something else? Because new imaging created this gray zone, all of a sudden we saw a boom in these oligometastatic patients, so we decided to do a clinical trial in this setting.

In our paper published in The Journal of Clinical Oncology (JCO), we randomized our patients to wait and see. One group had surveillance while starting ADT, and the other group had surgery or radiotherapy to the mets followed by surveillance. In that study, we found that surgery or radiotherapy is better at postponing further progression to polymetastatic disease rather than just observing patients.

We have an alternative now in counseling patients: metastaticdirected therapy with either surgery or radiotherapy. We know that it’s very safe, because we did not see any grade 2 or higher toxicity, which is a positive thing to tell men with prostate cancer. We can offer you something without a whole lot of toxicity. We still have to tell you this was a Phase II trial. The endpoint was time to progression.

I’m still not sure that giving metastatic-directed therapy will change your disease in the long run, that it will make you live any longer compared with immediate ADT or surveillance. It’s still too early to tell. We try to counsel our patients with these different options.

Join us to read the rest of Dr. Ost’s comments. (Subscribers can read the conversation in their March issue of Prostatepedia.)


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Imaging Metastatic Prostate Cancer

Dr. Eric Rohren is the chair of the department of radiology at Baylor College of Medicine.

Prostatepedia spoke with him about imaging metastatic prostate cancer.

Subscribe to read Dr. Rohren’s comments on radium therapy + imaging. Members can read the interview in their March 2018 issue of Prostatepedia.

In terms of imaging, what kinds of scans can determine if a man has metastases (mets) anywhere in his body?

Dr. Eric Rohren: X-ray has been around for a long time and still has a role to play. It’s easy to obtain, it’s cheap, and it has low radiation exposure. We still rely on a good old-fashioned chest or bone X-ray, depending on the patient’s symptoms.

These days, most patients with any type of malignancy, and specifically prostate cancer, are managed in a couple of ways.

One way is a CAT scan. CAT scan is a 3-D imaging technique that uses X-rays that can take images of the body, chest, abdomen, and pelvis. Most patients with newly diagnosed prostate cancer or treated prostate carcinoma have undergone a CAT scan at some point in the course of their disease. CAT scans can show us the prostate gland, lymph nodes, liver, and many of the different organs where cancer may be hidden.

To supplement that, patients with prostate cancer often get a bone scan, which is a nuclear medicine technique. In a bone scan, we inject radioactive material that goes to the skeleton, and most strongly so in areas where there’s increased skeletal turnover, where something in the bone is inciting a reaction. It may go to benign things like healing fractures, arthritis, and various areas of injury. But the radioactive material also goes to areas of metastatic disease in the skeleton, and it localizes most particularly in those areas, lighting up on these bone scans.

Rather than just a particular region of the body, a bone scan shows us from the top of the head all the way down to the feet, which is nice. We get a look at the entire skeleton, and we can look for the little spots that are lighting up that may indicate the presence of metastatic disease in the skeleton.

CAT scans and bone scans are very widely used. A bone scan is a little bit better than a CAT scan in looking for these bone metastases, so the two really augment each other in detection of the disease.

Beyond these, we do have some newer imaging techniques coming into play. There’s a way of doing a bone scan with PET scanner. A PET scanner is another nuclear medicine technique that is more sensitive than a standard nuclear medicine camera, and it acquires a CAT scan at the same time. You can look at the images on the nuclear medicine technique overlaid on the CT scan to see where exactly the activity is and what it’s due to.

We can also use some agents with PET scanning to look at the skeleton. A so-called fluoride PET/CT bone scan seems to have many advantages over a conventional bone scan in terms of detecting smaller disease, more sites of disease, and things like that. MRI is also used in some cases.

Traditionally, MRI is used to evaluate specific areas, so if there’s pain in a particular area such as the skeleton,

MRI is a great way to do that. MRI is also used to look directly at the prostate gland and at the prostate bed after prostate surgery or after other therapy in the pelvis. It can be very good at detecting small volumes of disease. The problem with PET scanning and MRI scanning is that they are less accessible, although MRI is in most places now, and most major areas have access to a PET scanner.

Then there’s the issue of cost. Both techniques are costly. We need to determine if the added cost is justified by the additional information that those scans provide.

Beyond these techniques, the exciting thing for nuclear medicine is the new developments on the horizon. As we discover more about the molecular nature of disease, why cancer forms, and what makes and defines a cancer cell, those molecular discoveries can be translated into imaging studies that we can then use with PET scanning to be even more sensitive for detection of disease.

For example, there are several new molecular tracers in the United States that are approved for imaging of prostate cancer. Choline and Axumin (FACBC) are both agents approved in the United States for use with PET/CT.

Internationally, people are moving to a compound called prostate surface membrane antigen (PSMA) that can image prostate carcinoma. It seems to be even better than Choline or Axumin. The data is still a little bit undetermined at this point, but there’s a lot of excitement around these newer agents being able to seek out cancer in very small volumes anywhere it occurs in the body.

Then I guess the question becomes: when do you treat?

Dr. Rohren: Yes. That is very much the question. As we discover more and more sites of disease and smaller sites of disease, the question becomes: do we need to treat those aggressively or conservatively? We’re discovering new things about tumor biology, and we need to understand how that gets translated into the best appropriate therapy for patients.

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Dr. Eric Rohren: Why Radiology?

Dr. Eric Rohren is the chair of the department of radiology at Baylor College of Medicine.

Prostatepedia spoke with him about the path that led him to radiology.

Subscribe to read Dr. Rohren’s comments on radium therapy + imaging.

Why did you become a doctor?

Dr. Eric Rohren: I actually tried my best not to become a doctor initially. My father was a doctor. I grew up in the shadow of the Mayo Clinic up in Minnesota. I knew I was interested in science, but for a long time, I thought I wanted to pursue a career as a research scientist and not a physician.

As I made my way through college and looked at what I really enjoyed and what a career would look like, I wanted to focus on patient care and do things that impacted people. I looked for a career that could combine the science that I enjoyed with the ability to directly interact with people, to hopefully make their lives better. I came full circle, landing back in a career in medicine.

How did you end up in radiology and nuclear medicine?

Dr. Rohren: That was also a little bit indirect. Most medical students aren’t introduced to radiology until very late in their medical training.

A lot of people make the decision to do medicine or surgery well ahead of time, but radiology is often a latecomer. Nuclear medicine is even more so. It’s a subspecialty of imaging, its own medical specialty, but it can also be considered a part of radiology. Medical students often make it through their entire medical training without learning about nuclear medicine at all.

I was fortunate to have a mentor in the radiology department at the Mayo Clinic who taught me what he loved about radiology and how impactful it was on patient care. He got me further plugged in to nuclear medicine.

As I went into my residency and pursued it further, I decided that the science that I loved and the ability to do new things were most focused in radiology, and particularly in nuclear medicine. That’s the career I ended up with.

Many people assume radiology is just imaging. Is that the case? Where does it branch off into nuclear medicine? What kinds of therapies would a radiologist administer?

Dr. Rohren: A big part of being a radiologist is reading images. We also oversee the acquiring of the images, so we monitor the acquisition of the scans and the technologist performing the scans. Many of the people reading this article will have had X-rays, CTs, and MRIs. While technologists and nurses take them into the scanner and get them positioned, ultimately, the radiologists are the ones who oversee the program and make sure that the scans are acquired in the right way. They’re responsible for patient safety, the patient’s experience, and things like that.

At the back end, once the scan is complete, radiologists interpret the scans and look for the findings that may be used to guide medical decisions. Whereas many radiologists can go through their day and not see a patient, they do see the patient’s images. However, there are components of radiology that are directly related to therapy and directly patient-facing.

In interventional radiology, we do biopsies and endovascular procedures, catheter-based procedures, embolizations, administering treatment, and things like that. In women’s imaging such as mammography and breast cancer screenings, those radiologists spend a lot of their time talking to patients and counseling them about their diagnosis and procedures.

One area of radiology where we do meet with a patient face-to-face and interview or talk with them is in nuclear medicine. In that role, we act as “real doctors,” where we walk in, interview the patient, review their labs, go over the plan, do a consent process if it’s for a therapy that has some risks associated with it, and then we administer the therapy directly there in the clinic. When I serve in that role, I feel much more like a patient-facing physician than I do a traditional radiologist. It’s one of the most enjoyable things about it for me.

People tend not to be familiar with specialists until they need them. They might not really understand what you do until they’re at the point where they need your services.

Dr. Rohren: Generally, that is the impression, that the radiologist sits in a dark room, reads scans, and that’s the end of it. The national societies for radiology really encourage us to interface with patients and physicians to make our presence known. Radiologists need to do a better job of that. We have a critical role to play in the management of patients and the diseases that they’re dealing with, so the more we can be out there, share our professional knowledge, act as consultants, and act as physicians for the patients, that’s a positive thing.

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Advanced Imaging + Prostate Cancer

Dr. Phillip Koo is Division Chief of Diagnostic Imaging at the Banner MD Anderson Cancer Center.

Prostatepedia spoke with him about advanced imaging + recurrent prostate cancer.

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Do you have any advice for men considering advanced imaging for prostate cancer?

Dr. Koo: We’ve been talking about better imaging tools for prostate cancer for years. When it comes to other cancers, we moved forward a great deal when FDG PET/CT became available. With prostate cancer, we’ve been stuck with CT and bone scans since the 1970s. They’re great tools. I don’t want to devalue what they’ve done for our patients since then, but we knew we could do better. Urologists and oncologists knew patients had metastatic disease, but our imaging tools limited detection.

We have new tools available to us in 2018. There is no question that costs are going to be higher, but that shouldn’t stop us from exploring and pushing the envelope. The whole purpose is to improve overall survival and treatment for our patients. An ounce of diagnosis could be a pound of cure. If we could identify disease sooner, identify the right patient for these exams, and use them at the right time, then we could probably create treatment plans more appropriate for patients with better outcomes. It’s something that I firmly believe. There is so much potential here.

When radiology is practiced in a vacuum, it’s not as powerful as when it’s integrated into patient histories and treatment plans. Radiology is a very powerful tool. But we often think of it as a commodity, something that does not have any distinguishing value. That is a huge under-estimation of radiology.

When performed correctly in a multidisciplinary setting, with access to the medical record and physicians who are taking care of the patient, radiology unlocks information that can really impact care for patients with prostate cancer. And we are currently only scratching the surface. This will change as analytic tools continue to analyze bigger data sets that include imaging and clinical data. If a urologist determines that their patient needs imaging, they’re going to write a request for imaging that describes what type of test they want and why they need it.

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Patients often go to the closest facility. Convenience is important, but when it comes to certain tests or exams, I urge patients to seek out subspecialized radiology experts and facilities with the experience and expertise in the performance and


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Dr. Philip Koo: Why Medicine?

Koo-WEBDr. Phillip Koo is Division Chief of Diagnostic Imaging at the Banner MD Anderson Cancer Center.

Prostatepedia spoke with him about imaging recurrent prostate cancer. But first we asked him why he became a doctor.

Dr. Philip Koo: I became a doctor in large part because I couldn’t imagine anything better than spending my life learning about the human body and using that knowledge to improve human health. Given that I tended to do better in science and math, medicine provided a nice fit.

Why radiology?

Dr. Koo: During medical school rotations, you try a variety of specialties. A common theme in all my rotations was the central value or importance of imaging within the care of a patient. That piqued my interest in radiology. When I learned about radiology, I was captivated by looking at images or different techniques to capture a certain body process anatomically or physiologically and by being able to use that information combined with the clinical scenario in order to come up with a diagnosis.

Did you ever study engineering? I’ve been reading a lot about how radiology and imaging are becoming incorporated into the tech world, such as with IBM Watson.

Dr. Koo: I’m not much of a techie. Before I switched to one of those flat screens, my friends used to joke that I was the last person in the United States to have a tube TV.

To me, it’s not necessarily a disconnect with radiology because radiology is the practice of medicine. It is an art. No matter how much technology we implement, there still is an art to the way you practice the science of radiology.

There is no question that technology has caused a tremendous growth in our field over the past 10 to 20 years. These technologies were disruptive and beneficial to our specialty. Artificial intelligence and machine learning are the newest technologies poised to disrupt the specialty. As a specialty, we are embracing these tools and finding ways that they can be utilized to improve patient care.

Join us to read Dr. Koo’s comments on imaging + prostate cancer.